NOTE: These transcripts are generated automatically, so there are plenty of mistakes.
Oliver: [00:00:00] Exciting news, collectors. PSA has just made a groundbreaking announcement, officially recognizing the 1996 Cardass Pokémon cards as the very first Pokémon cards. This is a monumental shift, as previously PSA had mistakenly labeled Topsun as 1995. Thanks to the dedicated efforts of our community members, particularly Max, otherwise known as Max Max City, who actually got in contact with the president of PSA.
The label has now been corrected to reflect the official and accurate year of Top Sun cards as 1997. This was an amazing shift, an amazing historical moment for Pokemon card collectors, and you may have guessed already today on the podcast, I’m joined by Max. Um, this is a great one. Buckle up. All right, Max, so how are you doing today, man?
Max: I’m doing great. How are you today?
Oliver: I’m [00:01:00] doing good as well. Uh, thank you so much for coming on. This is going to be a big one.
Max: Yeah, man. I’m so excited to talk about this today. Got the new label change. It’s just happened with 1996 Bandai Kardashian now being recognized by PSA as the first official true rookie Pokemon card set.
So we’ve got a lot to talk about.
Oliver: That’s right. Uh, why don’t we just jump right into that? Let’s do it. I mean, that’s, that’s why we’re here. So, uh, yeah, that happened. It’s, it’s been a long time. The top son cards were recognized by PSA as being released in 1995, which as you know, is incorrect. So can you tell us a little bit about that whole, the kind of like, I feel like with
Max: a lot of the old collectors in the hobby, there’s always been that debate, right.
With it being band divers, top son who was first there, then there became a time. Where people thought the TCG could have actually been before either of them. This was kind of debated a little bit in [00:02:00] 2000. I think the biggest clue that always stood out to me was the fact that the Pokemon company themselves, they always use the, uh, original release of the Game Boy games for their anniversaries and stuff.
So it’s like the 25th anniversary is, you know, February based on February, 1996. So it’s like how. Can there be Pokemon cards that come out in 1995 when this, when they, when the company themselves use this 1996 date for their anniversaries for everything? Um, yeah, so it, it really got put onto the radar originally when that huge sale took place.
There was a Charizard, Topsun, no number blew back. I believe it was 493, 000. For a PSA 10 sold and that’s essentially where I kind of got into the hobby and it really Sparked my interest.
Oliver: Oh, were you not [00:03:00] collecting before then?
Max: Well, I was collecting I honestly got into the hobby With so i’m a pharmacist and I work in a hospital in Asheville, North Carolina And the way I got into the hobby was, you know, i’m the typical I collected when I was like in first grade, when I was in first grade, that’s when first edition base set was coming out.
So I collected then probably collected to like, I don’t know, fourth or fifth grade, and then I heard about a sale online. I believe it was the rapper logic had bought a card for around 200, 000. And then Logan Paul had bought something really expensive. So then I started tracking all these big sales. And then I got this idea because I worked on the evening shift at the time at my hospital.
I got this idea of. Maybe I could start flipping these cards. I had, it was, it was solely financial based when I started back in the hobby and now it’s completely turned the exact opposite for me. Now I’m a hundred percent like collector. I rarely sell anymore. So that’s kind of how I got [00:04:00] started was just trying to flip cards.
Cause I found out that you work on the evening shift and you get off at midnight. There’s a lot of people who incorrectly list auctions or they’re up all night trying to figure out how eBay works and cards are running for like 50 percent comps at, I don’t know, one or two o’clock in the morning. So that’s how I got into it.
Then I first learned about Top Sun with that big sale.
Oliver: Yeah, do you collect Top Sun?
Max: I used to be a big collector in the Top Sun actually and I was a believer at that time that they were the first Pokemon cards and that’s kind of what Sucked me in was I saw that big sale. I thought hey I could buy a bunch of the lower grades of this and probably just flip them and make money and then the more and more research I did and I did and the more and more research that’s been done online on like the elite forums and stuff Started seeing more and more clues that oh god.
This might not be the first set. They’re beautiful cards extremely delicate cards, especially the uh, hollow foils So I I don’t personally I don’t [00:05:00] think I personally have a top sun card in my collection now.
Oliver: Oh, really?
Max: Yeah, i’ve sold I’ve sold them all I did open a pack like a year ago You
Oliver: You opened a pack.
Max: Yep, when PWCC invited me out to their headquarters, right when I completed my set, I bought a Topsun pack for us to open, we got to try the gum and everything.
Oliver: Okay, so it was a special occasion.
Max: It was a special occasion, because usually, I’m the type of guy that, I don’t let my I don’t let myself be around sealed stuff.
Um, I know I will open it, so if you look at my collection, mostly it’s stuff that’s already opened or already graded, with no fear of me just one day opening up everything that I own.
Oliver: I collected a lot of Top Sun, but I found that I kind of, I almost like, developed this negative connotation towards Top Sun because they’ve stolen the spotlight for so long.
I really like them, but I, I like, prefer [00:06:00] Cardass just because of its, its release date now, which I, I don’t know. It’s a little bit weird, but
Max: They’re beautiful cards. They look extra vintage. They give you great feelings when you look at them. There actually is a connection between the Cardass cards and the Topsun cards.
Like, if you look at the back of Topsun Cards like in the background those little tiny Pokemon. That’s the same background. That’s on the Bandai Kardash map cards, too
Oliver: Right. There’s some
Max: connection between them.
Oliver: Yeah, I’m I was looking into that. I recently Remade that background in Adobe Illustrator so I could use it in various infographics and and I found it in a few different places one was a Magazine and I just can’t think off the top of my head right now which magazine it was But I believe that was an early asset produced for, for licensees to, to promote, to promote Pokemon.[00:07:00]
That’s my best theory anyway.
Max: It was an old, like, Japanese magazine that you had?
Oliver: Yeah, yeah. I think it was, it was something, uh, similar to Shonen, you know? Okay. It might come to me later. But yeah, I’ve seen it in a few different places. I’m, I’m guessing that that was like early marketing material.
Max: Yeah, you’ll have to show that to me, man.
I’m excited to see that.
Oliver: I believe I, I, I have a link to the magazine and I’ll show that to you. Yeah. I think the top son cards, they look vintage. They look, they had this vintage look to them, right? They looked like they could be from the seventies even. And I think that really, um, pumped up the idea that they were the first.
Max: They look so old. They really do.
Oliver: They do. Um, so can you tell us a little bit how you got inspired to, to, to, to Press PSA and the other grading services to [00:08:00] make this label change.
Max: Yeah. So I hate being told no, I think everyone does, but I extra hated it. I’m a pretty competitive guy. I’ve got like a competitive background too, in high school.
Like I used to do decathlons and stuff. I ran track in college. And I just thought it would be such an easy change. Like this would be something that’s kind of obvious. We’ve got the license information from Topson’s actual website. We’ve got screen grabs of them saying we didn’t even get our license until, uh, March, 1997 or April, 1997.
Seen those dates on screen grabs on their actual website. I thought this would be something that would be so easy to change. And the fact that it wasn’t. I think that’s what’s, what really inspired me. I think the pushback, like you were talking about, how when you collect Topsun now, it almost feels a little weird to collect that.
I think that people have that connotation towards [00:09:00] Bandai Cardass right now. And I think that’s why it’s such an undervalued asset, is because people are scared to be like duped again.
Oliver: That’s a great point, actually. I didn’t look at it like that. If you’ve invested heavily in Topsun, and, um, well, for example, the, the buyer of that Charizard, right?
I can’t imagine, um, being in that position right now. You know, I don’t, I don’t know anything about the buyer. Perhaps he’s, He sold it already and moved on. Maybe not. It’s, it’s gotta hurt though.
Max: I believe that buyer was the same buyer that resold it for 200, 000 like a few months later or a year later. I think it was around a year later.
I believe, I believe it was the same cert that sold. It was the same one that went 493, 000. I believe it sold for around 200, 000.
Oliver: Ouch.
Max: Yeah, I’m assuming it had to be some, like, crypto guy that just had [00:10:00] crazy money and just decided to throw some money down on Pokemon cards is my guess.
Oliver: I hope that’s the case.
I hope that’s the case.
Max: To be honest too, when I started coming out with a lot of this stuff, the amount of hate that I would get in my inbox and just how much I would press this on Instagram was insane. And it was a little bit scary knowing that people who are six figures involved in this hobby.
There’s a guy that’s literally, you know, screaming on his stories every single day that Topson’s not the first set and they’re trying to protect their investments. I do have to say that a little bit along the way, it got a little bit like scary from that standpoint too.
Oliver: Yeah, and there’s some tribalism involved as well, right?
If you’re a Topson guy, then Then you kind of automatically hate card ass and vice versa.
Max: Yes.
Oliver: Which is just toxic. Right. So I [00:11:00] wrote a, an article that you probably came across during your research. I think I wrote it in, in 2020 or maybe early 2021 on sleeve, no card behind about how top son is likely not the first.
And I did reference a lot of those, um, uh, screen grabs from. The early TopSecaConfectionaryCompany website, etc, etc. And the amount of comments I got on that article, calling me incorrect, and, and accusing me of damaging the hobby, etc, was, it was surprising. It was surprising. But you have to understand that people, like you said, are protecting their investments.
Especially if you spend half a million. Yeah,
Max: and especially for those set collectors, too, that are trying to collect every PSA 9 of the entire set or every PSA 10 of all of the hollow
Oliver: foils. [00:12:00]
Max: And there were big figures, too, that collected the Top Sun set as well, which I think that, that was definitely PSA’s relationship with some of these high profile individuals.
I think is one thing that actually prevented the label change from happening any sooner.
Oliver: I see. I want to hear a little bit more about the process of getting this label change done. You also, did you also get Beckett and CGC to change their labels?
Max: So I was working, I was blasting off emails to literally everybody.
The thing with Beckett, Beckett, I believe, was the first people to change their labels. I don’t even know if they’re grading Top Son right now, but I do know that on the most recent Top Son cards that they’ve graded, that they do have the 1997 date. The whole thing with Beckett originally got [00:13:00] started was because I actually, me and many other collectors, we have this Instagram group of non TCG collectors.
There are quite a few of us that bought these Topsun Charizards on eBay or Buyee or Japanese marketplaces that we thought when we bought them were legitimate when we received them. You could tell it was a no number Charizard II. When you got it, you could tell that the coloring was off a little bit. It did not look authentic.
And I got my money back. All the other people got their money back. You know, that’s fine. Next thing we know, a couple weeks goes by. Beckett then grades like ten of these fake Charizards. Charizards and they put them in BGS 9. 5 slabs. So the thing with Beckett, the way that that got changed was it was like an army of a lot of us from that non TCG group that were blasting off emails at the time.
Um, I would definitely say I was a big leader in that [00:14:00] charge. Um,
Oliver: nice.
Max: So that’s how that got changed. CGC, what happened with them was, I’ve actually got a buddy in the hobby, he’s one of the biggest collectors in the hobby, he’s like an anonymous dude that, I don’t think he’s even on Instagram, like he’s kind of behind the scenes in a lot of different ways, but he’s got a deal with CGC where he’s grading like 5, 000 cards every month for some special deal that they have.
To my knowledge, I don’t think CGC ever had the dates wrong. They were just sitting on the issue and they had all these cards and they’re waiting to be graded And they did not know what date to use 95, 96, or 97. So the way that CGC’s um, the way the back out worked was essentially my connection with this big collector and his connection with CGC was I gave him all the information, he provided CGC all the information, right after that happened, CGC came out with the correct [00:15:00] dates on them, and then they just had it right from the get go, from when they released it.
They had his cards, I believe, for like, I don’t know, it was a long time, it was like nine months, or maybe even a year, that they just
Oliver: Wow.
Max: He had sent them all there, they’re just sitting there, he’s like, we just need, like, information to know exactly what date because they don’t want to put out anything that’s wrong because they’ve seen all the controversy with PSA and Beckett and especially after Beckett had graded those 9.
5s. The bad thing with Beckett during those 9. 5s was They graded a fake BGS 9. 5 no number Charizard. The person who graded that fake I believe, I believe he was a good guy and he did not know that they were fake when he graded them He just thought he won the freaking lottery. He Sent it to heritage auctions.
He sent one of his 9. 5s to heritage auctions And they listed it on the cover of their magazine for their, like, premiere auction, which that kind of leads into my relationship with Heritage and getting them to fix it. Because [00:16:00] then I had an army going after them on fixing that and letting them know, you cannot auction this slab or you guys are going to be in a world of trouble.
Especially this one, not even being an authentic card. It’s not only labeled incorrectly. The bigger issue is you got a fake card in that slab.
Oliver: I didn’t know about any of this, man. I was just sitting back and doing my own thing while all this was going on.
Max: There’s been a lot of craziness that has happened through my entire, my entire journey in this hobby to like, get it to where it is today.
Putting all the information together. That was not me that, you know, found all the licensing and everything. I just kinda put all the information together and I just communicated effectively with these companies and with these people. Different people, but I would, I’ve never claimed to be the person to, uh, I guess, find all, all the real information.
And I kind of was just the, the relayer of all the community’s message.
Oliver: I see. So my, my personal journey for the past three years is trying to [00:17:00] recover a invoice or receipt or, or something for the sale of a Topson card in 97. And I, I’m not successful so far. Trying really hard
Max: finding a, like an original sale of,
Oliver: yeah, yeah.
We don’t have an exact date. Right. I want to know like what I’ve been doing. Um, one of the strategies is going on eBay, finding some Japanese sellers who have been around for a long time, have sold a lot of top son and I just reach out and I say, Hey, like I have sleeve note card behind we’re investigating the top son cards, if you know anyone who might have an invoice or like Anything, any kind of documentation of like the day that they came into the shop, but no luck so far.
Have you seen
Max: those
Oliver: sheets
Max: that have come out? Like those Topson sheets?
Oliver: Yeah, that’s very interesting. That’s very interesting.
Max: I just like wonder [00:18:00] where they came from. And the source as to, like, where they came from, if they would know anything. There’s also a question as to, like, the authenticity of them.
I assume they’re real looking at them, but I don’t know. You know, it’s like they just kind of came out of nowhere. There’s like four sheets. I do believe they’re real, though, because I did notice that I’ve seen four different sheets come out. And one of the sheets was 50 cards, and it was every single no number Pokemon on one sheet together.
Oliver: Yeah, I mean, if I was making fake sheets, I’d probably do something like that. That’s true. You know what I mean? Yeah, I saw those and I was like, man, I just, there’s nothing to compare it to. I don’t know. Like, it’d be great to get those authenticated. You know?
Max: Yeah, it’s just the, the price too, just seems a little low.
That kind of sketches me out. But at the same time too, you know, it’s kind of like all hands off top son. I don’t know if I want to be involved in this set. Cause you know, it just has a negative [00:19:00] connotation to it. Like you said. Thanks
Oliver: I still like them though, and I want to run a theory by you. I think, I think it’s possible, I’m not actually sure where I, where I sit on it, but I think it’s possible that the Top Son cards were manufactured before the games came out, and just not distributed.
Max: That’s a theory that I’ve seen a lot of people, but I still think that is, I still don’t, I don’t buy that theory at all. And the reason being is because Top Son is, they’re a gum company, they’re a, they’re a candy company.
Oliver: Yeah,
Max: whereas Bandai is like the biggest, you know toy company in Japan. So for that theory to be True in my head this and I’m not saying it could be true what you’re saying could definitely be true What that would mean would be that this random [00:20:00] company that has candy Somehow beats the largest toy manufacturer in Japan.
That’s what that’s how I see it. You never know There’s no clarity with any of this I’ve hunted through all these different Japanese magazines, trying to find just any advertisement of Topson whatsoever.
Oliver: Me too.
Max: Have you found any advertisements of Topson? I’ve not been able to find anything.
Oliver: No, and I think that’s, that’s the thing, right?
It’s just not documented. There’s no advertisements. It really feels like, they’re like, hey, let’s just make these Pokemon cards, you know? It’s just this dumb kid’s game, right? Yeah. The Topsun cards, they have a red and green background. Some of them have an all red background, some of them have an all green background.
And just like we see in the Cardass cards, they reflect the exclusivity for the version exclusivity in the original Pokemon games. But the Topsun ones are wrong. They’re incorrect. I don’t [00:21:00] know if that’s just a product of, like you said, Topsun being a, uh, candy company, and probably didn’t give a crap. Or, if that was data they received.
Prior to the games coming out, because as we know, the games went through a lot of last minute changes.
Max: One thing I wonder too, is did Bandai actually have the rights to those cards or to the designs that were used on those cards, and they ended up being the ones that actually sold it. And the license to top son.
That’s also a theory I’ve weighed. Cause there is, there, there is an overlap between the two sets. As much as there is like a controversy that exists as like what’s first, there has to be some sort of connection between the two.
Oliver: Yeah, I would agree with you there. Either way. The last, last couple of years I’ve leaned [00:22:00] heavily towards Cardass.
I think they’re much cooler.
Max: The one interesting thing that I think is crazy about Cardass. Is the fact that, you know, it says monsters collection on the cards. Why, why is it in English?
Oliver: Great, great question.
Max: I think I have no idea. Like that’s the most bizarre thing. It’s the first Japanese Pokemon cards.
It’s the first Pokemon cards. Why are they in English? That’s just, I know, I know the front, the front’s in English. I mean, I know the back’s like all Japanese, but the front being.
Oliver: The text in the background is English as well, right?
Max: Yes. Yeah. And it’s English too.
Oliver: And you don’t even notice because it’s our first language, right?
You’re looking at the card, you’re like, Oh yeah, cool. And then it dawns on you a little bit later. You’re like, wait a minute. Why is it in English?
Max: Yeah. So bizarre.
Oliver: I think it was cool, you know, back, back in the, uh, in the [00:23:00] nineties to have English toys, maybe. Yeah. I remember, uh, conversely, getting Japanese Pokemon cards when I was a kid.
Those were cool. Those were really cool because they were in Japanese. And that’s the only reason why.
Max: Yeah, I can remember being in second grade. So, my mom was the type of mother that would buy me anything I wanted, which is, you know. It was awesome for me. I was a little bit spoiled, but I had like three Charizards.
Three base Charizards. I guess I was a little bit after the first edition wave. And I can remember I traded one of my base Charizards for a Japanese, uh, Blaine’s Charizard. Just cause I thought it was so cool.
Oliver: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Is there any English on the top slant cards?
Max: I think just like at the bottom, like in their copyright information.
Oliver: Oh yeah. I guess the booster packs [00:24:00] say Pocket Monsters though, don’t they?
Max: Yeah, I believe so. It’s been a while since I looked at the top some products to be honest.
Oliver: Yeah, so you don’t have a single card anymore, hey?
Max: No, the the last card I owned was a Binonet PSA 10 that had the cert number 420, which I just thought was hilarious.
It’s a cream backed Binonet with 420 as the cert number, so I just thought that was awesome, so that’s the last one I gave up.
Oliver: So you have a completed card asset, correct? Correct.
Max: I had two binders. I’ve recently sold those binders to, I’ve got, you know, after collecting 96 Bandai Cardass so hard for as long as I did and tracking down every single prism in PSA 10, um, I’ve gotten really back into the TCG.
And so I’ve, I had two binders. I know that they’re readily available [00:25:00] on the various Japanese marketplaces, but I sold those just to stack up some cheap vintage PSA 10s on the TCG.
Oliver: So you collect TCGs?
Max: Yes. Oh yeah.
Oliver: Uh, are you into modern vintage, all of it?
Max: Um, Mostly everything I collect, I would say my theme of my collections is 1996.
So, I’ve got the 96 Bandai Karnas prisms in PSA 10. I’m also one of 20 collectors in the world that have the 96 TCG holos in PSA 10. Um, and then I essentially have just collected like all the other first generation, uh, PSA 10s of the cards I like. I also collect all the band cards.
Oliver: Oh, [00:26:00] nice. And
Max: most recently, I actually bought the Moonbrion, the English Moonbrion, because it was cheaper, just to see what that hype was about.
But I, I just like Iconic. Like, if it’s an iconic artwork, um, it’s, there’s going to be a project that’s going to come out, I believe in the future, that’s going to be the most iconic Pokemon cards to ever exist with PWCC or Fanatics or whenever this does release. And I just think that. When people think of Pokemon, what Pokemon cards do you think of?
You think of the first edition Charizard, you think of, you know, the Lugia, first edition Neo Genesis Lugia. So right now the theme of my collection is just trying to collect the most iconic cards that I can, but it is mostly vintage
Oliver: themed. That sounds fun, but it sounds expensive. The most iconic cards are the most expensive.
Max: And that’s why I collect Japanese because it’s so much cheaper.
Oliver: That’s true. Did you, but you bought the English Moon Breon, didn’t you?
Max: Yeah. And that was only because it was cheaper too. Like, I think that was like 850 [00:27:00] compared to the Japanese Moon Breon, which I think was like half the pop.
Oliver: Oh
Max: yeah. And it was like 2, 400.
I was like, I’d rather just buy the English version. I love it though. I think it’s cool.
Oliver: I never, um, I like the card. I, I appreciate it for what it is, but it never struck me as, as a chase card. Like when Evolving Skies came out, I saw it and I moved on. And, and now a couple of years have gone by and people are still going bonkers over this card.
And I like it now. A
Max: lot of sales that happen on eBay every single day on that card is insane. It blows my mind, but yeah, it is ran. It’s the most random thing ever. I mean, Umbreon Pokemon.
Oliver: Sure. Yeah.
Max: But it’s still just weird that it’s like, out of everything, that became kind of like the modern day base set Charizard for this like new generation of collectors.
Oliver: Totally. Yeah. Especially for people who, like, [00:28:00] getting, getting a base set Charizard isn’t cheap. So if you, if you have the chance of pulling the modern version, being the Moon Breon, that’s, there’s just so much hype around that, right?
Max: Have you ever been into the modern stuff? Or do you collect modern?
Oliver: I do.
I, uh, I tend to Buy vintage though, because modern, I, I don’t like opening booster packs. Pokemon one 51 was an exception for me, but I generally, I generally, uh, save up and buy, uh, a higher ticket, older cards.
Max: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve heard that like the chase on that Moon Breon is like, you have to open up like anywhere between like 500 and a thousand packs or something on average to even like hit it,
Oliver: which is very low odds.
Stab them. Very low odds. Yeah. Um, it’s like [00:29:00] much harder to pull than a base set jars art.
Max: It’s crazy. And then there was that dude, apparently from like, you worked at one of the English factories and he was just stealing every single like Umbreon that like came down the line or whatever, which I’m assuming just made it even.
More difficult.
Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t, uh, I didn’t really follow through on that story. If that guy got, um, you know, if they caught him, I don’t know.
Max: Yeah, I know I know he tried to like offload like 500 at once.
Oliver: Oh, come on, dude. Oh Man that’s not a good idea.
Max: Guess he was probably trying to put out like a down payment on the house or something Who knows
Oliver: I guess so.
I’m yeah Yeah Yeah, no, it’s a beautiful card I definitely looking at it now I feel like I missed the I missed the opportunity to get one Although it is a buyer’s market now prices have dipped a little bit I, [00:30:00] uh, I want to buy one, but my focus right now is on, um, it’s on vintage, especially Cardass. I, I want to complete, get all the prisms.
Max: Heck yeah. So are you going for the raw set or are you going for, are you buying anything graded?
Oliver: So I’ve got Blastoise and Charizard graded. I will get Venusaur graded as well. Um, I’ll probably just go raw for the rest.
Max: I don’t know. The, uh, CGC market is so cheap on 96 Van Nykarna, so like, I just can’t help myself, I’ve had to buy some, some tens up from there just cause they’re going for like, I mean the CGC 10 gym mints are going for like, 1 7th or 1 10th the price, and I’m like, oh my god, I’m just gonna stack these.
Cause these prices won’t last forever. [00:31:00]
Oliver: Yeah, um, do you primarily buy cards on eBay?
Max: Uh, I would say eBay. And then, with the different groups we run on Instagram, I’ll get it from different people through those groups. Or, uh, Pwcc or Fanati will be Fanatics. I’d say those are probably my three big places I get cards from.
The thing with Pwcc and Fanatics, though, is I love using them. I love selling with them, but usually cards sell for premium over eBay. So, if I’m buying, usually I’ll get it from eBay, or I’m gonna get it from somebody else, to be honest.
Oliver: Yeah, I, I primarily am looking at the Cardass cards on eBay, but have you been watching the Charizards lately?
I’m pretty sure they’re creeping up in price.
Max: And 96 Vanity Cardass or just as a whole?
Oliver: Uh, I’ve, I’ve been watching the Charizards specifically for about the past month.
Max: [00:32:00] One thing that’s crazy So I got that notification that, from PSA, first thing, we’re going to do this label change. And they originally said it’s going to happen before 2024.
Well, first off, they told me last summer. They said it’s going to happen by, like, April, uh, 2023. Then it was going to be the end of summer. Then it was going to be September. And then I kind of lost my mind for a little bit around this winter break. And I emailed the president of PSA directly, forcefully was like, this is ridiculous.
It’s been three years. What is going on? Like, this is a shame that we can’t even get this fixed. And then he responded within like five minutes and was like, we’ll get this worked out. So shout out to Ryan Hoger. President of the PSA because, and then next thing I know I got an email from another like higher up worker there.
That’s like, okay, we’re going to get this, uh, worked on. We’ll have this done by [00:33:00] February, 2024. And then at, I think it was January 31st at like 10 o’clock at night, I get this email. Hey Max, I’m really sorry. This is going to get pushed back. We had like a lot of stuff going on, but like, it seemed legitimate.
It wasn’t kind of pushing me off for the first time.
Oliver: Yeah.
Max: This will be done by April 1st. And so I thought, Oh, this is great. This is great. And then I posted online and everyone’s like, April 1st, bro,
Oliver: April
Max: fool’s day, bro, you kidding me? And then, um, like March 13th, I believe it was, is the actual day that they did the label change.
And at that time, CGC tens of the Charizards had just sold for like 2, 000 to 2, 600, there’s a four of them. And so I bought three CGC tens as quickly as I could. Um, And now one actually sold either last night or the night before they’ve all disappeared from the [00:34:00] market. There was, I think like seven or eight.
Now there’s, now there’s one pristine for like 18, 000 and there’s one green CGC 10 for 7, 500 and one sold last night of the night before for 4, 000.
Oliver: Wow.
Max: So it’s already. booming a little bit, I think even just like me posting on the elite forums to help the prices because I’ve never really been a poster on there or every time I did, like I tried a couple of times posting on there back in like 2021.
Every time I did, I’d get like shut down or a lot of hate.
Oliver: I
Max: was like, man, this is supposed to be like my, you know, like my cruise. I thought everyone would be really nice on these forums. And they were not. Then when I tried it again, A couple months ago, everyone was so nice to me on there. I was like, yo, okay.
Yeah, I had
Oliver: the same experience.
Max: Everyone just being really mean to you. You post on there. [00:35:00]
Oliver: We’re cool now. I don’t know what happened, but we’re cool now. There must have
Max: just been a lot of bad people in the hobby back in like 2021.
Oliver: I can see that. Yeah,
Max: we’re going out for their investments. I don’t know when I posted now, it’s like, everyone’s been really nice.
But I know when I made that thread, my most recent thread saying that the label change was going to happen. I was thinking, I was like, what can be the most click baity title I can possibly make so that when future collectors go and they search the anti Cardass or Pokemon rookies, what will show up? So if you go back and look at my posts on E4, I literally have like an all bold.
99, 19 96 Band I card ass equals the true rookies.
Oliver: That’s funny that you mentioned that because I, I have a background in SEO writing for sleeve, no card behind. I try and do that exact thing right. Try and get to the top of the search results and I’d saw your post. I was like. Hey, this guy’s going to outrank me with that title.[00:36:00]
Smart though. It’s, it’s very intuitive for you to do that. And I think it was a good move.
Max: Yes. We’ll see as time goes on the interest on these cards. Now that that’s kind of a more clear understanding.
Oliver: Yeah. So it’s interesting if you say card asks to me, the first thing that comes to mind is undervalued.
They’re severely undervalued. They have been for a long time. Now that PSA is officially recognizing these as the first Pokemon cards, where do you think we’re going from here in terms of, uh, our investments? Is it gonna be a spike? Do you think this might be a long term increase? Do we still have time to buy Cardass cards, or is it over?
Max: I think we’ve still got plenty of time, because at the day, most people collect only the TCG. A lot of people only collect English. And I think now that the pathway is clear, it’s going to take a while for [00:37:00] even the big collectors in the hobby to even start accumulating them, which I’ve noticed a lot of them have recently.
Starting to see them on, like, a lot of bigger pages, and especially now, I’ve got kind of a mission with what I’m doing now is now that I’ve got this whole All set up, we’ve got PSA, BGS, CGC all on the same page. We’ve got Heritage, Golden, and PWCC and Fanatics all on the same page. Now my goal is to try and go to more Pokemon events and like actually get the awareness out.
Especially going to different like Collecticons and stuff. With uh, you know, because there’s a ton of influencers there if I can just spread the gospel a little bit more I think that it’ll go up but as far as the investment, I think we’ve still got plenty of time I view it as something that’s gonna go up and it’s gonna go It’s gonna be going up the entire time But I think it’s gonna go up then we’re gonna see a little bit drawback and up It’s gonna kind of go and it’s [00:38:00] gonna kind of like inch ahead Then I think that after a period of time next thing we know might be a couple years or three years that You Whoa, the true rookie Charizard is now selling at 30, 000 in PSA 10, as opposed to the highest one we saw last year was 17, 000.
So I see it as kind of being like a long term play, especially as people our age start to keep growing up and getting older and making more money. Exactly. Spend stuff on silly stuff like Pokemon cards.
Oliver: I think we’re probably going to have a buyer’s market for a little while longer. I don’t know when it’s going to happen, but we’re going to see.
A really big sale, right? Similar to the tops on Charizard and that might turn the tables.
Max: Especially with the pop being so low, because now it’s like, when you look on Japanese marketplaces for cards, and I would say anywhere from like [00:39:00] eight PSA, eight to PSA, 10 condition, it is nearly impossible to find anything that is that high, and especially for the Charizard.
So I think. We’re just going to run into a place where there’s just going to be like no Mint copies or near Mint copies on the market anymore. They’re all going to have been graded. And if the first edition English has like, what, like 124 PSA 10s? There, I think there’s 93 PSA 10s of the Bandai Cardass Charizard.
There’s roughly, there’s roughly 50 CGC 10s if you count all the Gym Mints. And there’s like 13 Brassines. And Beckett actually has one BGS 10 of the 96 Bandai Karnass by a guy over in Europe, and he owns that.
Oliver: But it’s
Max: not on their pop report, but it’s legitimate and it’s on eBay. I think it’s got a listing for like 300, 000.
Oliver: Tell me about your eBay listing.
Max: Yeah, so, a lot of my eBay listing is just to catch people’s attention. [00:40:00] Because, like I said, I’m a collector, um, I’m not really trying to sell too much anymore. So, I want people, when they go onto eBay, you know, you search Pokemon, search by Hi Esther, you searched Pokemon 96.
So I’ve got my entire Prism set on there. I think it listed for like 500, 000. Yeah, I’ve got my Charizard listed for like 125, 000, I believe. I actually at one time had it listed for 50, 000 and then this Japanese guy messaged me. He’s like, this is the time that I was the only one in the market. He’s like, are you stupid, man?
This is the first Charizard to ever exist. You need to raise your price.
Oliver: Really? That’s so funny.
Max: Translated kind of horribly, but I was like, this is hilarious. That this guy’s telling me that, and I was like, he’s right. What am I doing? Hell yeah. I need to raise my price. I’m going to make it six figures.
Oliver: That’s hilarious. [00:41:00]
Max: But I mean, it’s never going to be as rare as like the trophy Kangaskhan or, you know, a lot of these trophy cards. But I think it’s, I like to, I like to call myself, you know, I’ve got my championship belt. I like to call myself the people’s champ. I don’t really collect the trophies and stuff.
So I like to collect the cards that. The normal collectors, normal human beings had when they were growing up as a kid. So I think as far as like, I’d say set cards that it’s pretty, it would be one of the best investments there would be.
Oliver: I agree with that. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about the Cardass cards and the process of, you know, if you wanted to buy a raw copy and get a PSA 10.
What are we looking for? Because I know we got that thing in the corner.
Max: Oh, the Nick, the classic Nick. Yeah, the classic Nick on the Cardass cards. I don’t know what causes that. I don’t know if it’s like in the [00:42:00] production or it was in the machines. I think it was in the production because some kind of have those innies and some kind of have the outies like a belly button.
Oliver: Yeah.
Max: Um, but what I think of is if I were to go hunting for 96 Bandai Cardass, I wanted to try and find some raw tens. I think the only. Efficient way you could, you could do it nowadays would be going through the Japanese markets because I think what’s happening now is the smart players in this game are buying raw cards from Japan.
Anything that’s like an eight or less, though, they’re going to be reselling it on eBay or other sources, and they’re going to be grading the rest of theirs. So I think using like Bayi or, uh, Yahoo Japan or, uh, Mercari. It’s really one of the few ways that you probably get some tens down is like I’ve heard some people got it from streamers on [00:43:00] whatnot.
So maybe being really lucky situation like that, but I think for the most part, you got to get it straight from the source in Japan.
Oliver: Yeah, I’ve also noticed on the back of these cards. Um, if you flip them over on the left, you have the like little, uh, uh, measurement. So it’ll tell you how tall the, the pocket monsters.
I’ve seen lots of dirt on that side of the card. Like, little brownish, reddish brown spots. And it’s consistent, like it’s not, you know, like this card’s dirty, that card’s dirty. I’m seeing it a lot and I don’t know what that is from.
Max: I’m wondering if it was just like the Cardass machines were just dirty.
Like they’re just kind of dirty machines and they’ve re They’ve reused those machines from old Cardass products. And they were just simply put into a very dirty machine that had been used for like years, [00:44:00] is my guess. I’ve wondered that too. What is all that brown dirt that’s on
Oliver: these cards? It always seems to be on the left side and then slowly kind of like fading into the right.
And then, but sometimes it’s on the right and almost looks like a smudge, but it’s always the same color. And I’m thinking there’s got to be like some like gears or pulley or something that wears out in the machine. And. And make some dust or, or dirt or something.
Max: I have one of those machines. I gotta say, it was like, it is like the most intricate machine on the inside.
I had no idea it was gonna be this intricate. It was, when I got it, my gears had like all come out of place. So I’m trying to fix it, and I like stayed I did like an all nighter trying to fix this damn machine because there’s literally like, I don’t know, 50 gears on the inside and they’re all tiny and you’re just trying to reach your hands into this small little area to put them all together.
Thankfully, my machine is back intact, but [00:45:00] it is so intricate on the inside. I could definitely see there being like dirt just like stuck in there. I don’t even know.
Oliver: So, how in the world did you get a hold of an original vending machine?
Max: There’s actually a guy, I believe he lives in somewhere on the west coast, things like California or Washington or Oregon, he’s in one of those states, but one of his hobbies is just restoring Kardashian, Kardashian machines.
So the way I got into it, I think I like searched on E4, trying to find a seller, didn’t really find any luck, started like asking around and then I found two people that were like, Hey, I bought a machine. But when I got it, it came broken and now I can’t use it. I’m like, Oh, that’s not a help. And then finally I got a lead from somebody.
And this was actually a guy who had received a [00:46:00] broken machine. And then he bought another machine from this other individual. And it’s this guy that was in the West coast. He restores them all. He knows like all the details about that. And I felt pretty comfortable buying it from him because when I, when I reached out to him, he told me, he’s like, do not ever buy one of these machines from Japan.
It’s 100%. Gonna come broken, and you’re going to feel like you just wasted thousands of dollars, but this guy, he was restoring the machines, uh, where he lives, I guess he buys them from Japan, restores them, and then he resells them. I think roughly right now they’re like 1, 500 to 2, 000 per machine, but I’ve had a few hiccups with mine, I mean, they’re just, you can’t even, like, if you lay it on its side, just the pressure from the gears on the inside can come misaligned.
Oliver: Wow.
Max: So traveling with it anywhere is near impossible. Like, I wanted to, I wanted to originally go to different shows, card shows, and [00:47:00] like, have, I don’t know, people do like a game where, you know, you pay a certain amount of money and then you can actually get the old feeling of like what it’s like crankin put the coin in, crankin it, get like five cards, like I thought that’d be really cool, but unfortunately with how delicate they are, I think it’s just unfeasible to do that.
Oliver: So that lends credence to the machines likely damaging the cards if they’re so, uh, sensitive.
Max: Yeah, and the part where it, like, shoots the card out too, that is such a thin area on the inside of the machine, that cards can even be damaged when they’re, like, dispensing, like when you’re cranking the little wheel.
There are so many Places in that machine where they can be damaged just from like the general normal use. And I’m sure it was probably like that in the nineties too, that like, I’m surprised there’s as many tens that exist nowadays, which is, you know, most of the prisms are [00:48:00] less than a hundred for both colors combined and PSA 10.
I’m amazed that it’s even that high, to be honest.
Oliver: I wouldn’t mind grabbing one of the vending machines, but I don’t think I’d mind if it’s. Broken on the inside. I don’t, I wouldn’t dare use it.
Max: Yeah, it is cool to use it. I’ve got something like the, uh, The front displays that was a little challenge to find They’ve kind of popped up a little bit more recently, but i’ve got some extra of the part one and part two And I think part three and part four too But you can find them in like japan for anywhere from like fifty dollars to three hundred dollars or so So I actually put the front display on yeah So if you ever do get a machine I can help you out with making it look like the OG true rookie dispenser.
Oliver: It’s on my list along with about a thousand other things that I want.
Max: I feel ya. [00:49:00] Theory collector’s dilemma.
Oliver: So we didn’t even talk about the the 97 Cardass series. Do you collect those? Are you into those?
Max: There was a period in time where I had collected a PSA in 1999. of all the prisms and the rainbow foil and then the two cards of the checklist that are kind of like the secret rares of the set.
I love that set. Um, I don’t, I don’t have any in my collection right now. My favorite would probably be the, uh, I like the two checklists. I like the, the Mew because one thing that’s interesting about the Mew Is it’s the only foil in the set, like everything else is identified as a prism, whereas the Mew is a foil, it’s a rainbow foil.
So that’s a little bit unique. But the checklist, that’s like, Ken Sugimori at his finest, designing those cards. If you could get one card signed by Ken Sugimori, [00:50:00] if he like ever were to come back and do signatures again, that would definitely be on my list as an option, as something to get signed, because I just think they’re beautiful cards.
Oliver: Yeah. I think personally, I think those cards are the best artwork in the franchise. To me, it’s, it’s the best. It’s that like original Sugimori illustration and the 97 series. We don’t really see those illustrations anywhere else.
Max: Right? Yeah. You don’t. And it’s like, what is it with like the 97 set? It’s something like every character is doing like a signature move or something.
Yeah.
Oliver: Yeah. Yeah, like, I think, uh, Bulbasaur’s doing Leech Seed, Ivysaur’s doing Razor Leaf, you know.
Max: They’re like, each doing something unique to their character. That set really is amazing. Right now, I think you can buy a binder from, uh, Yahoo, Japan or [00:51:00] Mercari for, I think you get directly from Japan. I think it’s around like 550 or 600 for the complete set without the checklist right now.
That’s something I’ve kind of wanted to get, but I keep buying slabs, slabs are just so take up less space and I’ve got a small little condo here. So
Oliver: yeah. So you’ve, you’ve reduced your collection overall and you’ve condensed it all into some high value slab cards. Hey,
Max: yeah, I’ve probably gone from, I think the largest my collection ever was, was 600 slabs and four binders, miscellaneous other stuff.
And I think right now I’m sitting at about probably 75 or 80 slabs. I’ve got my machine. I’ve got my, I collect the comics too. Quora Quora, the old Quora Quora comics. But yeah, the majority of my collection is in my like 75 or 80 higher value slabs.
Oliver: [00:52:00] Wow. 600 slabs at one point.
Max: Oh, dude, that was a nightmare.
I, I don’t know how people do it with like Like some people they like show off having you know, a ton of slabs when I had the that many slabs man I felt stressed This is way too much. I want to sell all these What am I gonna do?
Oliver: That’s insane. That’s insane
Max: Some people I mean, you know, some people love and thrive off having that many slabs, but that’s not for me I’d rather just have I’d rather have just like what you can see
Oliver: Yeah.
Yeah, I think I have I don’t know, 25 to 30 slabs, maybe I’m in Canada. So sending cards to PSA is huge pain in the butt. Um, yeah, I, I probably have maybe 25 to 30 full binders though. And I kinda like, I like binders.
Max: You got a nice library there going on.
Oliver: Yes, it [00:53:00] is extremely organized. It has to be.
Max: Yeah. One of my buddies.
So I’ve been selling to him. Anytime I’ve been getting binders, I’ve been kind of selling to him the binders, and then he’s moved more towards binders, I’ve moved more towards slabs.
Oliver: Nice. So,
Max: it’s been very good in our friendship and growing together.
Oliver: Do you have a preference, uh, PSA? Maybe?
Max: As to, like, where to send my slabs?
Yeah. Or just, like, what I like to collect? Right now I’m a big PSA and CGC guy. I think that, so I’m, I grew up as a coin collector with my dad. So he took me to coin shows when I was like four or five years old. And we did that till I was probably like, I don’t know, 12 or 13. And I can remember back in the day with coins when NGC came around and people started wondering, [00:54:00] Well, what’s more valuable, a PCGS coin slab in its highest grade, which is a 70, or a NGC slab?
Two parent companies are the same as PSA and CGC. And at that time, everyone really undervalued the NGC coins, which is the equivalent to Pokemon CGC. So right now, I just think that if I were a person trying to make money, or I cared most about that. I think CGC is the best value in the market. I think they have the best social team and communication.
And I think PSA is just the big dog that does, I don’t know, 83 percent of all Pokemon cards graded right now. Something around there, 85. 70, 000 cards a day sometimes.
Oliver: I think, um, I think CGC slabs are my favorite. Like, the actual I like the soft corners. I like the look and the feel of them.
Max: And the one thing I love about the CGC [00:55:00] slab is the clear, like the clear background or the clear like edges around the card.
Compared to like a PSA where it’s like
Oliver: frosted
Max: around it. I just feel like it’s just like floating in the slab. It just looks more like professional and clear.
Oliver: Yeah, yeah,
Max: the PSA slab is like so thin though. I do like that Yeah, thin and I feel like you can see the like crispness of the card a lot easier than in the CGC slab That’s one thing.
I don’t like about Beckett. They’re cool. The black labels are awesome You know, they go for high dollar, but the plastics just so thick.
Oliver: Yeah, so we have a grading company here in Canada That’s been around for a long time called mint and they use the exact same slab as Beckett And I have, I have a lot of mink cards and, and it’s just like, damn, I like the company.
I, I hate the slab.
Max: They’re so thick. And then on top [00:56:00] of the thickness, it’s like, then you have that plastic sleeve on the inside too,
Oliver: that kind of distorts. In some cases, in some cases, I, I can’t remember. I have a small collection of like different, different grading companies slabs. I like to, I like to send some of my lower value cards out to the smaller companies and get back these interesting slabs.
And labels sometimes, and some of them, I don’t know if they use a different brand of sleeves, but the sleeve is a little bit wavy.
Max: Yes.
Oliver: Yeah, and that, that’s a big, that’s a big turnoff. When
Max: I first got my, my first like BGS 9. 5 Bandai Kardash Charizard, which was like the highest grade I owned at the time.
And I never thought I was going to own a 10. I never thought I would, thought it was like too much money, but I thankfully got lucky with like trades and different things. But I can remember when I first got that BGS 9. 5, I was like, oh, this is sick. I let my hand for the first time, looked at [00:57:00] it, and I was like, what the hell?
Is this like wavy on the inside? Why is it wavy? Is this like to take damage in? It’s like now it’s like the sleeve that’s causing that effect, I guess.
Oliver: Yeah, that’s uh, yeah, it’s too bad. They aren’t all like that, so I don’t know what’s causing that. But the PSA slabs. If you shake them, those cards move and that bothers me, I don’t think it’s really going to damage the card ever, but it, you know,
Max: There’s like a period of time to where I think it was like in a six X cert era where they got really bad at shaking in there.
Like I know they still do today, but it seemed like they moved the most like a year or two ago that like, I can’t remember people on eBay. I sold them a slab like that, or I’d hear other people had this. They’d get it and they’d be like, This shakes the slab! And it’s like, They kinda all are now, I’m sorry.
Oliver: I [00:58:00] don’t think, uh, I don’t think it’s gonna cause any damage, though.
Max: Yeah, I don’t think so either. You’d have to like, really rigorously shake it repeatedly. You’d probably have to like, try doing it.
Oliver: Yeah, if you’re a fan of, um, Pat Flynn, his YouTube channel is DeepPocketMonster, he built a little Lego contraption that holds a PSA slab and shakes it.
And he said it for like 24 hours straight or something crazy like that. And the cards did come out damaged. Like, yeah, you could see like it was starting to wear away and there’s like little white flakes in there, but it was an extremely unrealistic.
Max: That’s hilarious that he did that.
Oliver: Yeah, yeah. Oh, fantastic.
He’s amazing, man. He’s amazing. So we’re at the one hour mark. I want you to tell the audience where they can find you. Your Instagram handle, everything like that. Where can we follow you?
Max: So you can find me at MaxMaxCity [00:59:00] on Instagram. And I also have a website too. MaxMaxCity. com and you can use my website actually to buy products directly from Japan.
I go over on my website exactly how you can do it. And if you ever have any questions at all with like purchasing cards from Japan or it’s your first time doing it, I’m very receptive to DMs. So feel free to message me. It might take me a little bit to get back with you, but I respond to everybody. So
Oliver: not hard at
Max: all to get in contact with.
Oliver: Are you primarily on Instagram?
Max: I am on Instagram primarily. Um, I did create the Reddit page, Vintage Pokemon Cards, so I ran that, I think there’s probably like over a thousand people on that Reddit page, but I don’t know, not many people are using that so much, so I’m pretty much working primarily out of Instagram.
Oliver: And you have a website? Uh, what else is on there, by the way, I, I went on your website and, uh, I didn’t spend too much time [01:00:00] on there.
Max: Uh, primarily now it’s just like links to, it’s pretty much just that one page essentially of just helping other people shop from Japan. I had some other pages I had set up, but with my job working as a pharmacist in the ICUs at my hospital, I’ve kind of just abandoning doing anything else with it.
One day I’d like to essentially just have like a digital wall. Max Max City underground of like my entire collection on there where like you kind of check out what I What I own and then ideally i’d like to build Almost like a stock ticker of like the the value of my collection and you kind of like follow along with me Along the way if i’m losing money or making money, I guess we’d see who knows what to be in cardboard Forward but that’s where I like to put it right now.
It’s pretty much just uh Resource hub for quick links of shopping in Japan with different links I’ve built for people.
Oliver: And [01:01:00] is that MaxMaxCity. com?
Max: Uh, yes. MaxMaxCity. com. That’s it.
Oliver: Alright, so if you need help or if you’re interested in buying some Japanese Pokémon cards from the Japanese market, you can go to MaxMaxCity.
com. Get some help there. There’s some valuable resources. And thank you so much, man. Not just for coming on today, but For what you’ve done for the community. It was a really big historical step getting that label changed. And, uh, and I’m really proud of you for doing that. That’s awesome.
Max: Thanks, man. Thanks for your time.
Thanks for the, uh, for hosting this. I’m glad we can get the information out together. It’s been an honor being on your show.
Oliver: Cool, dude. Thank you. And, uh, I’m open to you coming on again sometime. We’ll see how your collection has grown.
Max: Yeah, man. Anytime. I’m down anytime.
Oliver: I’ll see you later.
Max: All right. I’ll see you.